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UnMeilleurReve
Dirt-Under-The-Nails Hippy


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 542


Location: Las Vegas

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First off, it has come to my attention that, unless we pump a cow full of hormones, which puts into question ethics immediately and puts the cow at risk for infections and would cause pus and blood to enter into the milk, a cow only produces milk when it has a calf.

Therefor, to get milk from a cow, we would have to get it preggers and then take some of the milk baby would be using, or take baby away from mom too soon, which would cause mom to stop producing milk sooner. Additionally, I have a straight and direct issue with artificial hormone injections into animals. I also don't want to reach my arms into the vag of a cow and turn a calf around so it births right or have to worry about the health of multiple cows.

If this is somehow untrue, I might re-change my opinion, but that's one of the problems with being fairly rational: if it makes sense to change your views, you change them, lol.

So, considering this, is anybody else against cows? I think I need a vote change... -1 on cows, +1 on alpacas.



And Z, I'm still worried about what happens when a commune member bonds with the animal, which is bound to happen, and the animal "loses use" to an unbonded member. If somebody kills susan when I love susan, and then eats her, rather than cremates ceremonially, I might be pretty unhappy.

So, while we have no right to try and change anybody, there is the possibility for some sort of compromise or agreement to prevent bad blood, especially because, no matter how you look at it, pets and livestock are luxuries maintained by excess and therefor not necessary as a dietary component (and would actually diminish the available amount of food available on our land). While it is any member's decision whether or not to eat meat, susan's death is a full commune decision, as is her butchery thereafter. If we never knew or saw susan, then it becomes a moral issue on the part of the individual consumer which we don't have a full right to have a say in and some members can abstain (though it would be polite to not eat or cook meat in the presence of a veggie).

So, unless this becomes an issue at the commune, for now discussion should be tabled. If somebody wants to kill susan while at the commune, we have an issue. If somebody goes and finds pieces-parts of susan, fine and good, but when somebody tries to make pieces parts of susan, thems be drama words.
Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:50 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Selkie
Dirty Hippy


Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 225


Location: California :(

Post Reply with quote
Wow, I never knew that LeRev O_O

Okay, totally against having cows now.

Times a million.

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What he said.
Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:42 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
tuffenoughtorock
Questioner


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 52


Location: Iowa

Post Reply with quote
LeReveur wrote:
First off, it has come to my attention that, unless we pump a cow full of hormones, which puts into question ethics immediately and puts the cow at risk for infections and would cause pus and blood to enter into the milk, a cow only produces milk when it has a calf.

Therefor, to get milk from a cow, we would have to get it preggers and then take some of the milk baby would be using, or take baby away from mom too soon, which would cause mom to stop producing milk sooner. Additionally, I have a straight and direct issue with artificial hormone injections into animals. I also don't want to reach my arms into the vag of a cow and turn a calf around so it births right or have to worry about the health of multiple cows.

If this is somehow untrue, I might re-change my opinion, but that's one of the problems with being fairly rational: if it makes sense to change your views, you change them, lol.

So, considering this, is anybody else against cows? I think I need a vote change... -1 on cows, +1 on alpacas.



And Z, I'm still worried about what happens when a commune member bonds with the animal, which is bound to happen, and the animal "loses use" to an unbonded member. If somebody kills susan when I love susan, and then eats her, rather than cremates ceremonially, I might be pretty unhappy.

So, while we have no right to try and change anybody, there is the possibility for some sort of compromise or agreement to prevent bad blood, especially because, no matter how you look at it, pets and livestock are luxuries maintained by excess and therefor not necessary as a dietary component (and would actually diminish the available amount of food available on our land). While it is any member's decision whether or not to eat meat, susan's death is a full commune decision, as is her butchery thereafter. If we never knew or saw susan, then it becomes a moral issue on the part of the individual consumer which we don't have a full right to have a say in and some members can abstain (though it would be polite to not eat or cook meat in the presence of a veggie).

So, unless this becomes an issue at the commune, for now discussion should be tabled. If somebody wants to kill susan while at the commune, we have an issue. If somebody goes and finds pieces-parts of susan, fine and good, but when somebody tries to make pieces parts of susan, thems be drama words.



*Applauds*  Nicely put.
Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:39 pm View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
vov35
Dirt-Under-The-Nails Hippy


Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 553



Post Reply with quote
very nice!
umm... my vote for cows can now be removed.
Is it the same with <what the hell was that other animal> producing milk?

because dairy products AND meat we cannot dieteraly afford to miss.
we need non plant nutrients as well you know...

so... i was just thinking:
1) i'll prolly be a non-moral veggie for laziness reasons
2) can we grow mushrooms?

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...but it invovles black masks and gasoline
Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:53 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Zeerahks
Dirty Hippy


Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 311


Location: Minnesota

Post Reply with quote
Vov first:

We don't actually need meat.  Yes, there are thing in meat our bodies need, but it is possible to find them elsewhere (supplements, etc).

Mushrooms are a distinct possibility, though I don't really trust myself enough as a mycologist to eat any shrooms I would partake in growing.


LeRev:

No matter what animal we raise, if we breed them we'll have the possibility of a breech birth.  Unfortunately, this isn't just a cow thing.

I don't know enough about cows to comment on the milk thing, though I know that you can get milk without injecting the rBST/rBGH hormone.  I am against almost all injections of animals.

As for animals, I think we should differentiate between "food animals" and "commodity animals."  There's no problem with getting attached to commodity animals, as they will only die of either sickness or old age.  For food animals, however, I wonder if it might not be a good idea to simply have the meat eaters tend them.  After all, the animals would end up on their plate, and nobody else's.  Also, I don't think that butchery of a food animal is a decision to be undertaken by the entire commune.  Again, in my opinion that is solely the responsibility of the meat eaters.

As you can see, I am advocating a complete separation of duties between veg*ans and omnivores.  Omnivores will tend the meat animals in all respects, and veg*ans would have a much greater responsibility among either the greenhouses/crops or the commodity animals.

And, of course, a pet is a possession, and solely the domain of the owner (unless it starts causing trouble to others).

_________________
"The words work...sometimes."


They say one shouldn't shit where one eats, but there are more types of shit than feces, and we consume much more than food.
-- Black Iron Prison


Fuck competition.  LOVE IS COOPERATION.  And I like being loved. Very Happy
Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:38 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
UnMeilleurReve
Dirt-Under-The-Nails Hippy


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 542


Location: Las Vegas

Post Reply with quote
Here's the information I have.

First, the problem with removing meat from ones diet is this: you miss out on protein, iron, B12, potassium, and Omega 3.

Here's why you can get along perfectly without them: protein and iron will come from amaranth, and potentially more than you get from many meats. I forget what plant gives B12, but you can get that easily too. Several plants give potassium, bananas most notably (though we might not grow much, lol). And Omega 3 comes from flax in abundance.

Additionally, calcium and vitamin c intake will increase because less is caused to be wasted by the chemicals and stuff found in milk.

Finally, dairy intake after the age of 14 by people causes several health problems, both short and long term.


Fun info from being a Seventh Day Adventist for 14 years...
Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:44 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
glorfon
Comrade


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 469



Post Reply with quote
Are we still on for alpacas & sheep though?  Does any one have ethical problems with shearing a free range, organically raised, hairy animal?
Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:29 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
UnMeilleurReve
Dirt-Under-The-Nails Hippy


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 542


Location: Las Vegas

Post Reply with quote
So long as somebody learns how to do the whole darn process, I'm 100% fine with sheep and alpaca.
Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:15 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
tuffenoughtorock
Questioner


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 52


Location: Iowa

Post Reply with quote
LeReveur wrote:
Here's the information I have.

First, the problem with removing meat from ones diet is this: you miss out on protein, iron, B12, potassium, and Omega 3.

Here's why you can get along perfectly without them: protein and iron will come from amaranth, and potentially more than you get from many meats. I forget what plant gives B12, but you can get that easily too. Several plants give potassium, bananas most notably (though we might not grow much, lol). And Omega 3 comes from flax in abundance.

Additionally, calcium and vitamin c intake will increase because less is caused to be wasted by the chemicals and stuff found in milk.

Finally, dairy intake after the age of 14 by people causes several health problems, both short and long term.


Fun info from being a Seventh Day Adventist for 14 years...



Vitamin B12, an essential nutrient, is actually only needed in small amounts, since it is difficult to digest, and is stored in the kidneys and liver.  Despite popular belief, B12 is NOT produced by plants and animals--it is bacteria that does all the work.  You can get B12 through algae and other sea plants contaminated by the bacteria, although they are found to be unreliable to supply humans with the adequate amount (vegans, however, can only find B12 in fortified cereals, plant milks, and energy bars).  Eggs and milk do contain B12, so would be effective for vegetarians.  Omega fatty acids are most commonly found in fish, although flaxseed contains just as much, if not more Omega 3 and 6.  Pecans, Hazelnuts, and Walnuts are also common sources.  Hemp is also a popular choice, and can be made into a variety of products such as hemp butter and hemp milk, which both contain Omega 3, 6, and 9.(hemp is also pesticide-free, being a hardy plant that can handle harsh conditions and defend itself against most insects).

Potassium is very easy to find:  tomatoes, bananas, broccoli, avocados, soybeans, and apricots.
Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:31 pm View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
UnMeilleurReve
Dirt-Under-The-Nails Hippy


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 542


Location: Las Vegas

Post Reply with quote
DUDE! I LOVE Avocados!!!


Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:52 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
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