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kazman

grow

marijuana. that would be a good thing to trade with people... and stuff
Zeerahks

Wheat, probably Triticum aestivum (common wheat).

Sorry guys, but you can't live on weed alone!
kazman

what about corn? then we could have crunchy tacos
vov35

wtf. weed?
i thought this commune was supposed to be semi-legal.

wheat, corn, potatoes are really productive
Besides salvia divinorum is way more fun and legal than weed XD
kazman

but if its our own country, then anything is legal
glorfon

Actually this is just going to be a commune not it's own country.  If the commune stage goes well then we can try declaring independence.  I think the majority of land should be dedicated to cereals (corn, wheat, potatoes) then we can have green houses for smaller plants.
vov35

tomatoes grow pretty productively!
and...
I AM NOT A VEGITATIAN I WANT MEAT!
glorfon

Well, too bad If you want to feed your food to a chicken and get 1/7th the amount of food you had originally when you eat the food the go ahead but you aren't dragging us down with you.

Ok that was a bit rude but seriously have animals will mean needing alot more food and our land doesn't really permit that.  I'm not a vegetarian either but animals just aren't efficient sources of food.  Though if it's any consolation you can feel free to kill and eat anything(NON
HUMAN) that comes onto our land.  If after the first year we find out that we have plenty of food we can start having animals but I doubt that we happen.
vov35

glorfon wrote:
anything(NON HUMAN)

darn...  Laughing
i still like meat !
kazman

well theres gotta be wild stuff like deer right? who needs beef when u got venison or wild bird?
glorfon

Yeah, there's wild stuff and there'll be a hell of alot of it too when the animals find out that we're growing delicious organic vegetables(and pot) so shooting them and eating them will serve to purposes food, and protecting our crops.
vov35

hmm... as for eating animals. (sorry to all you vegitarians.)
what about the refuse from the crops?

like ground corn husk and stuff...
i think you feed that to chickens.
* too lazy to check*
UnMeilleurReve

So long as we are not systematically breeding, raising, and slaughtering animals, especially in the case of profit, I think it should be a "to each their own" when it comes to meat. Additionally, chickens produce eggs and cows produce milk, but both consume a massive amount of food *we* could be eating and thriving on.
vov35

again, feed them stuff peopel dont like to eat, but that is still edible. such as tougher parts of plants.
UnMeilleurReve

The worry I still have is how beneficial that the "unusable" parts are as mulch to reconstitute the soil. If we were producing and preserving at an excess of our necessity and overfilling our winter reserves, and still maintaining sufficient leisure time (which I think should be optimally 20 hours in a 24 hour day, but that's just me), then I would have absolutely no objection to animals.
vov35

thanks for being understanding of my non-vegetarian side.

can't we use shit for fertilizer?
at least,  know they sell manure  Laughing  lol
yeah, its ineffiecent, but the way I see it, there is no way other than this
(or corpgov prescription drugs) to gain certain nutrients.
UnMeilleurReve

We can't use our shit because of e. coli, etc. Manure works.

If we want proper nutrients, we should aerate the soil, use hair and leftover fruits and vegetables (leftover meat would contaminate the soil and water supply), dead brush and leaves, rotating crops, and black soil from the bottom of creek or riverbeds (which occurs because of dead organic material which is EXTREMELY mineral/nutrient rich), etc., to reconstitute the soil.

The thing we have to understand is that plants take the soil itself and transform it into their bodies, thus depleting the ground of usable nutrients and minerals. If a cow, raised on food from the ground in that area alone, weighs 2000 pounds, that is all derived from a combination of the ground, water, and air, meaning each cow has depleted (permanently) part of the ground. If our bodies are taking nutrients from the ground and it's not safe to return them *to* the ground, then we have to reconstitute the soil somehow. What better way than using the same things that it was reconstituted with before like dead plants?
UnMeilleurReve

I just realized something.

Potatoes provide the largest amount of bulk calories of any staple I know, and there are like 100000 recipes that make it taste good (and additions of other vegetables to make sure we're getting the right amount of nutrition).

Also, if we do an underground complex, we could maximize our usage of the land using hydroponics. Say we have a 7 level underground complex. The topsoil can be used for bulk agriculture, and then like 3 layers could be used for hydroponics. (Though that would call for more electricity to power the lights that make hydroponics possible).
glorfon

I love potatoes!!

However I'm not hydroponics seems like more work than it's worth.  It kind of depends on how much food we can grow on the land and in green houses..  I'm not saying we can't do it.  I'm just hoping we won't have to.
UnMeilleurReve

Okay, I'm going to have to totally agree with you. We should grow as much as necessary, and hopefully we won't have to go hydroponic to survive.
vov35

LeReveur wrote:
We can't use our shit because of e. coli, etc. Manure works.


aka animal shit. animals that provide non-plant food.

LeReveur wrote:

The thing we have to understand is that plants take the soil itself and transform it into their bodies, thus depleting the ground of usable nutrients and minerals. If a cow, raised on food from the ground in that area alone, weighs 2000 pounds, that is all derived from a combination of the ground, water, and air, meaning each cow has depleted (permanently) part of the ground. If our bodies are taking nutrients from the ground and it's not safe to return them *to* the ground, then we have to reconstitute the soil somehow. What better way than using the same things that it was reconstituted with before like dead plants?


You understand that in the process of photosynthesis, nutrients taken from the soil are chemically changed into other compounds. Ones that may not be as efficient in fertilizers due to a different energy state.
plus, remember the law of conservation of energy, what we consume, and shit out, is gone, as we use the energy to move, breath, etc.
UnMeilleurReve

vov35 wrote:
LeReveur wrote:
We can't use our shit because of e. coli, etc. Manure works.


aka animal shit. animals that provide non-plant food.

LeReveur wrote:

The thing we have to understand is that plants take the soil itself and transform it into their bodies, thus depleting the ground of usable nutrients and minerals. If a cow, raised on food from the ground in that area alone, weighs 2000 pounds, that is all derived from a combination of the ground, water, and air, meaning each cow has depleted (permanently) part of the ground. If our bodies are taking nutrients from the ground and it's not safe to return them *to* the ground, then we have to reconstitute the soil somehow. What better way than using the same things that it was reconstituted with before like dead plants?


You understand that in the process of photosynthesis, nutrients taken from the soil are chemically changed into other compounds. Ones that may not be as efficient in fertilizers due to a different energy state.
plus, remember the law of conservation of energy, what we consume, and shit out, is gone, as we use the energy to move, breath, etc.


Okay for animal shit.

However, entropy implies that compounds will break down, as they have before, and it has been proven that plants thrive on mulch. Also, chances are most of the nutrients in the soil have already been recycled repeatedly.

Also, law of conservation would have gone out in its usefulness because our shit wouldn't be going back into the soil, not to mention the things you listed. Again, I think mulch will be most efficient, especially if we harvest plant debris from the surrounding countryside in the fall (if that is an option).
vov35

way to quote my whole post.

mulch is used as a cover in addition to regular fertilizer.
UnMeilleurReve

Lol. Sorry, that's me being a lazy writer...
UnMeilleurReve

Okay, so to condense:

Potatoes: yes
Other veggies: undecided
Greenhouse: yes
Winter: preserves, cans/jars, and greenhouse food
Fertilizer: mulch and manuer
Animal husbandry: reservedly and as is sustainable

Any objections, additions? If yes, fire away! If no, then I think we need to discuss which veggies and animals we'll be raising specifically.
glorfon

corn and wheat I think are vital.  I'm very much for potatoes.  As far as other veggies we might want to research human nutritional requirements and plan accordingly.  Spinach and other leafy greens are high in iron which we'll need if we aren't getting much meat.   Beans are another thing that we'll need in the absence of meat.

Does anyone know anything about growing mushrooms? I something on TV about it and looked difficult but if we can do it we'd be able to grow those indoors year round.
kazman

i found some growing in my closet a few years ago. cant be that hard
glorfon

According to the show once they've started growing their really easy.  When you pick them the roots are left behind and more grow.  The main reason it seamed difficult was that the factory they showed made their own compost which was done inn a very lengthy process.
Zeerahks

There is a certain way of building underground that essentially hollows out the area you'll live in, then fills it back up with the rooms in place.  If we end up doing this, we could use the pre-tilled (essentially) area above for planting crops.

Just a thought...
vov35

I don't think we have that kind of heavy machinery on hand.

mushrooms are easy:
they need a cool damp place. now where can you find one of those near a tunnel network?

Razz
UnMeilleurReve

I think if we do our networking right, we can get a shit-ton of manpower and maybe some machinery or equipment for this kind of endeavor.

Would you guys like me to look into it?
vov35

sure! but its not my land...

it would be interesting if we could actually acquire machinery though...
glorfon

LeReveur wrote:
I think if we do our networking right, we can get a shit-ton of manpower and maybe some machinery or equipment for this kind of endeavor.

Would you guys like me to look into it?


What kind of machinery are we talking about?
UnMeilleurReve

What do we want? If we're serious about this endeavor, I will spend days on the phone and writing emails when the time comes and try to get what we need for as close to free as possible.

I was thinking back-hoe, forklift, cement mixer, shovels and picks, etc. Again, what do we want?
vov35

sounds nice!!!

seriously, if you can get some heavy digging and cement equipment it would be awesome. but this isn't happening all too soon...
glorfon

Yeah, like vov said there's no rush since it'll be 5 years until this commune starts.  Cement mixers shovels and pics would be usefull.  I was just worried that you meant farming equiptment like combines and planters.
UnMeilleurReve

I talked to my friend about the concept of a combine. For 20 acres, a combine is a ridiculous investment, it seems.

I think we should develop LAZER SICKLES! Okay, I'm totally just kidding.

But maybe we should seriously begin looking into larger land? That way if we built a 3000ft. wide by 3000ft. long by really really deep compound, we still have room for a well or two!
glorfon

LeReveur wrote:
I talked to my friend about the concept of a combine. For 20 acres, a combine is a ridiculous investment, it seems.
But maybe we should seriously begin looking into larger land? That way if we built a 3000ft. wide by 3000ft. long by really really deep compound, we still have room for a well or two!


Yeah that's why I was hoping you weren't planning on getting a combine.  Well I am going to look into getting another 26 acres.  Half a mile by half mile?  What would we do with that much compound.
Zeerahks

Again, 36 acres is about 65 square miles...WAY bigger than you think!  You guys are off by a factor of 10!!!

No a combine is not ridiculous!

As for building underground, our most useful items will be simply shovels and pickaxes...  And concrete mixers...once we get going, we'll need at least two or three!
glorfon

Zeerahks wrote:
Again, 36 acres is about 65 square miles...WAY bigger than you think!  You guys are off by a factor of 10!!!


No you are my schools campus is 33 acres and it is at the most a square mile.
Zeerahks

26 acres = 105218.267 m^2
105218.267 m^2 = 105.218267 km^2
105.218267 km^2 = 65.3796 mi^2

Google calculator, so I know I'm not doing anything wrong...
UnMeilleurReve

1 square mile, =640 acres. =27878400 square feet
Zeerahks

EDIT:

Ok.  I see what I've been doing wrong.  Forgive my recent apparent insanity and blame it on me doing conversions without squaring the end unit...
vov35

its a  325 meter square ( yes each side is 325 meters)
tuffenoughtorock

Alright, here's my take on everything....Since I live out in the country, I have some experience in growing and animal husbandry.  I have raised chickens for about 7 years.  Although I am vegan (thus I consume absolutely no animal products), we could have chickens for eggs if they are free-ranged.  Very few people know that chickens, ducks, and turkeys do great with controlling beetles and insects that harm crops.  All we would need for them would be a small shelter area.  Chickens normally go back to the same nests, so we wouldn't have to go egg hunting every day.  Chickens don't need any feed really, just plenty of space to roam and lotsa bugs and greens to eat.  Turkeys spend about half of their day grazing on grass, so there would be very little problems with feeding them as well.  Turkeys can also scare away cats, coyotes, and stray dogs.

  Poultry manure is also high in nitrates and is an excellent fertilizer in small amounts...hell, the animals can take care of distributing it!  As far as protection against predators, turkeys sleep in trees so they are good at taking care of themselves, chickens will naturally head to a shelter every evening, we just need to simply lock up the building at night and let them out in the morning.

The best breeds would have to be Rhode Island Reds, Wyandottes, and Leghorns.  They fare better in cooler climates and have smaller combs (the flesh on the top of their heads), meaning that there is a lesser chance of them getting frostbite.  Chickens with frostbite on their combs can become sterile or stop laying eggs.  As for turkeys, the Bronze would be preferable.

As for plants, how about considering planting some peach/apple trees.  Yes, they can be expensive and take forever to grow, but in the long run they would be great for food that would be available throughout the end of summer and through fall.  Of course, we don't necessarily have to grow everything, we could forage for wild berries and wild mushrooms (wherever there's shit, there's mushrooms!)

If I come up with anything else, I'll let you know.
UnMeilleurReve

If we work on it, we might be able to get our hands on a fully grown, ready to move fruit tree.

Geese make better guard animals and worse pets than turkeys, and unless we plan on eating the turkeys it would be a waste of resources (regardless of the benefits of nitrates). However, seeing the disposition of several of the people here, eating the turkeys may be an option. Just know that I won't have anything to do with it! Razz

Eggs provide a decent amount of nutrition otherwise unavailable, too.

To consolidate: fruit trees, chickens, turkeys.

Total list: potatoes, greenhouse foodstuffs, fruit (apples, etc.), chickens, turkeys. Am I missing anything, and would anybody like to contest anything?
vov35

YOU WANT NITRATES, HUH?
*takes a piss*

eloel, watch we get accused of terrorism for buying nhno3 fertilizer
glorfon

Seriously though that would be cause for investigation.  I'm not that good with chemistry but is that anhydrous amonia?  Ammonia (a common fertilizer) is also used to make meth.
vov35

sorry i meant ammonium nitrate which turns out to be nh(no3)2
which is mixed with gasoline to make a handy h1gh 3xplosive
which would lead to investigation
UnMeilleurReve

Damn, and here I was getting all these ideas of storing massive amounts of crystallized iodine and pure ammonia....
vov35

THAT DAMN WELL BETTER HAVE BEEN A JOKE!
UnMeilleurReve

Yes, yes it was a joke.
However, ammonium tri-iodide would be fun to have on hand, no? Razz
vov35

in LIQUID form maybe...

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